Welcome to the Social Change Leaders Podcast. I'm Tracy Warnberg Lemm, and this is your space to fuel collective power and lead authentic change while cultivating self awareness, joy, and a resilient spirit. Whether you're a seasoned executive or an emerging leader, you'll hear expert ideas, practical tools, and inspiring stories about how to lead change from the inside out. Hello, and welcome to the Social Change Leaders podcast. I am really excited about the guest I have today. For those of you that don't know me, I do a lot of work with and in government here in the state of Minnesota in the United States, and I have a background in social work, public affairs, and I've done a lot of community organizing. I worked in civic education for many years with K through 12 students, and have done a lot of work around strengthening local leadership aro- especially with skills with coaching and coach training, facilitation, et cetera. And so along the way, one of the people who has influenced my work is Peter Block. His ideas around community and stewardship and creating spaces for belonging has really shaped how I think about and see civic life and leadership. And so I am just really excited to have the chance to pick his brain a little bit today during our podcast, and kinda talk about some things that are near and dear to my heart, as well as I know many of you, about how can we really strengthen community and how do we build civic culture in this complex time that we're in. So Peter Block, for those of you- that might not know him, I'm guessing a lot of you do, he is a humble citizen of Cincinnati, Ohio, and is the author of many influential books, including Stewardship, The Abundant Community, and his recent updated book, Community: The Structure of Belonging, which is in its third edition. So for decades, his work has inspired leaders and community builders to think about organizations, neighborhoods, how we cultivate a sense of belonging, right? And then accountability and the common good. So we're gonna kinda focus on these themes today. And so Peter, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Tracy. Yeah. Nice to be welcomed that way. Yeah. So let's start out with talking about, leadership. There's so many leadership frameworks and paradigms, and you've talked a lot over many years about how you see community and community building as a leadership imperative today. So what does that mean to you? What does that mean for leaders that are working especially in civic and nonprofits, government, these types of organizations? Why don't we start with that? Anyway, thank you. I'm almost weaning myself away from the term leadership. Y- somebody has to be in charge, but I wanna... I think for the social commitment, social activist, civic culture that we're interested in, connectors is a more powerful frame. Let's say w- you call yourself a community organizer, but you're also a connector in terms of operationalizing that role, that you bring people together. The way social change happens- is people horizontally begin to trust each other and decide to do something, and somebody has to invite them in the room Some of them have to say, "Here's the playing field, okay? We, I run this agency, this association this neighborhood. Here's the fence. Now, what do we wanna do with the field available to us and it, and peers, neighbors, employees?" And that's what we don't do. We're still focused on somebody in front of the room. And I go to... I wrote the last book, was called Activating the Common Good, 'cause I want the notion of relational activism. Most of us is activating or waiting for someone else's transformation. And so I go to a protest, and I'm happy to be there, but I'm always looking at the stage and the microphone, and I never really... I wanna know who's in that room, who's on- ... that field with me. And so that's why I think the leadership, as we called it, is really how do we connect peers with each other, especially strangers- Yeah ... and especially into conversations they're not used to having. 'Cause most of the conversations we have is how somebody else should change, or how I should change. And I think your real work is what should we, how do we wanna be together differently? Absolutely. Absolutely. I- Yeah ... I love that notion of connectors, and a lot of people obviously have followed the news. And in Minnesota it's been really it's been a hard couple months obviously from all the things happening with ICE here. But as a Minnesotan, I take a lot of pride in that. We are a good governance state, and we are very civically involved and civic activated. And there was a recent article, I believe it was by Thomas Freeman, or I think it was by him, but they were talking about there wasn't really one person or one organization that led this. It was average people taking on kind of that connector role and participating and jumping in, and I just think there's so much we can learn from how that happened organically here in Minnesota. And I love that you frame it that way. I totally agree. And one of the things I was thinking about as w- I was preparing for this interview was, looking back just in my, since I've started my career, I've been doing coaching and training. I've had my business for over 20 years now, and I am amazed how much has changed just in 20 years in terms of how we how we do community and what community looks like, and just with technology. And so I'm curious from your work as someone so ingrained in the theory and the practicality of it, how has community changed in, from your perspective? And what's, what are some of the things that are good to keep intact, and what are some of the things that we need to modify in terms of how we connect and how we are in community these days? I think the need for it has become magnified. P- people talk about belonging all the time. Yeah. We talk about isolation all the time. Yeah. And so in a way, I wrote the book a while ago, you know- I think the, our language, your being, your organizing and what you say about, Twin Cities. I read, also read an article where a bunch of associations- Got started, and that's what made this so powerful. It wasn't like one day we woke up and- and so it, this is a permanent workout. The other thing is that I think a virtual world is no substitute for building community. It's convenient. I can be with you right now. I'll take it. Yep. But to say it connects us, it doesn't connect us. Yeah. Okay? It puts us in sound of each other, it puts us in sight of each other, but there's no sense. It's senseless. There's no downtime, there's no silence, there's no on my way there and on my way back. I think the problem is if we think that's building community. It's not. It's just it's a beautiful logistical convenience. God bless it. And and then, you can talk about ways to humanize it. But I think the need is more acknowledged than it's ever been, but the structures we had that were designed for engagement aren't working. They're just broken And you don't have to look nationally. It's, all that happened in the last two years is the veil has been lifted. But those oligarchs, they've been oligarching for a long time. Yeah. And locally, all of our councils for engagement, city and neighborhood councils, they don't work. There's still somebody sitting up front talking. And they say, "Oh no we engage citizens." No you don't, you send them a survey, and you get 20 to show up. And, yeah, "How do you feel about that? Thank you. We'll get back to you." And so I think there's a real opportunity for the connector activist leaders- Yeah ... we're with today. It's you're a convener for, a connector for- Yeah ... to say there's plenty of room for us, whatever we're touching, to change the nature of how we occupy a room. To me that's the simplest mo- What do you do next? I'm gonna be in a room- Yeah ... often in the next day. What do I wanna do with that room? And there's nothing to wait for. And I like the notion I'm departing the patriarchal world, the colonial world, the empire world- ... the pharaoh world, which is what most leadership training is to teach people to be kind and gentle pharaohs. Yeah. Yep. Yep. I think- And so we can depart it wherever we are just by the questions we ask. Yeah. Yeah I heard something recently that said the q- the quality of your life is contingent on the quality of your questions, and I liked that. I think that's very true. I think that's very true, how we... what questions we ask ourselves, and what questions do we ask the people in our lives, and what questions do we ask the communities we're a part of. And so I really liked that notion. And I think many of the people that are listening today are listeners, they're leaders, they're coaches, they're community builders, and I think they're really actively engaged in how do we create and build safe spaces for belonging, but sometimes it's not always clear or certain if we're doing that, if we're successful. What are some of the things that we should be doing? What are the things we shouldn't be doing? So I guess from your perspective, what are some of those key practical things that leaders what is their role in actively creating belonging within an organization or a neighborhood or civic life in general? , Wherever you are I don't care if it's a garden club coffee, you say, "How do we have people trust and get connected to each other in a way that's more powerful than we imagine?" And it's very simple. You could put them in a small group- Yeah ... and you ask them questions. Now, some questions produce agency and trust, and some questions are just very interest. And what those people are doing, what I did last summer, my story, I was born at an early age at the... None of that takes me anywhere. Everybody said g- let's help people tell their stories." No, I want people to produce their stories- Yeah ... not report on their stories. And so y- just any time you're with people, you start by saying, "Why was it important for you to be here today?" Especially in a... And do it in small groups. Talk to two other people so everybody's voice is heard. I don't have to hear them all. Yeah. Yeah. And then you come together, you say here's the intent. We're here for a garden, we're here for the street, we're here for-" yep. "... helping isolated people together. We're here to help whatever we're here for. Let's talk about what's the crossroads we're at." Yep. Instead of coming in and selling something. Yep. Most of the meetings we have, somebody's up the front of the room expressing themselves. Yep. Selling something, and I never find out who else is in the room. Or in the protest- ... and PowerPoint, I would ban PowerPoint, 'cause PowerPoint means you knew what you wanted to talk about before you got here. What's that about? And the other th- nobody's more bored than somebody going through their PowerPoint. That's true. That's very true. I can read. Can we talk to each other, please? I can read, thank you. Got it. Bang. And so there's also ways we can do to make peers be more personal with each other- ... not about the issue. Yep. We'll get to the need for the garden, we'll get to the need for the environment, we'll talk about what the school needs to do. Yep. But back to school night, the way I would do it is say, "Thank you. I'm the teacher of the third grade. Before I tell you about what's going on in the classroom, I'd like you to pair up with two other parents that are here and talk about what it is that you find most difficult in raising a child." I didn't come for the hurt. I came to hear what the teacher's doing to my child. I know you did. But if our job is to raise a child, our connection with each other has more to do with raising a child than the six, six steps of a good mother. Absolutely. Said. And so the questions bring us together. Answers keep us apart. The opposite of love, misheard. And so our job is to get questions that demand something of people, not opinions. Yeah. And that's what I've done. I've collected questions from everywhere, and you all have them. But when you ask people, "What's the no you've been postponing?" What the hell are you gonna do with that? All of a sudden I'm an actor. And now I've been postponed. What's the yes you no longer mean? Hey, no you don't keep your word all the time. And so that c- it allows leaders to get off the- Yeah ... leaders, mentor, I don't, I don't, I want people I can love, but I don't need mentors. I don't need people that know what's best for me- that are gonna bring me along. You have leaders say, "Oh, yeah I grow people." What kind of gardeners are you? Did you start with a seed or did you... It's, where did you plant them? What kind of... Save me. Sorry. No I agree. I completely agree with you. I one of, one of my favorite quotes is actually by Gandhi, and he said, "The gap between what we're doing and what we're capable of doing would suffice to solve m- many of the world's problems." And I think that's true, but it's contingent on all of us asking those hard questions of ourselves, and holding each other do- holding each other accountable and asking hard questions. That's huge. Holding each other, that's real accountability. Yep, exactly. Exactly. And they call it sometimes in, in rehab efforts, they call it accountability part. Yep. If I know I'm gonna have to own up and tell you what I'm doing, it changes the fact then. And telling my boss doesn't count. Absolutely. Absolutely. I do a lot of work here with local public health in the state of Minnesota, and one of the things that I encountered in the last six, six months to a year was people I was doing coaching with and trainings with, they were sharing with me that community meetings that they were attending and a part of that in the past they would convene people and say things like, we have this pool of funding to do X," whether it's, get healthier foods in our school, or prevent some type of a violence. So they used to have these pretty regularly, and these are good trained facilitators, I would say for the most part. But what they were finding is that people were showing up with a lot of energy because they felt like it was there, they felt like there was a political agenda behind even asking a community, "What does this community, what do we wanna do to improve X?" And I think it just, I think it, it's just something they hadn't encountered, and I think it's a sign of the times. So I'm gonna pivot us and I wanna talk about that, just how civic life, it's, it seems to be increasingly contentious, maybe for good reasons, maybe not. And in Minnesota, again, we have a strong civic culture, and we have high citizen engagement here. And even here the tension is really running deep. And I think our democracy assumes that we have a shared sense of reality and a shared set of facts, and yet we have to acknowledge we live in these different ecosystems of how we get our news, who we connect with, what are our topics of conversation. And so I wanna talk about, 'cause I know you've emphasized a lot about accountability and dialogue in your work, and the commitment to a common good. And so how do those values hold up- In a moment where we just don't seem to have the same trust with each other, we don't have the same set of facts, we don't assume the same things, and I think it creates a lot of challenges for a lot of people trying to do this work on the ground, and I'm curious what thoughts you have on that. What you say is true. The, We're much more vulnerable in the domain of journalism, of news. And so we're right not to trust what we hear. But then we still have a choice as to how we, what we do w- when we're in the room together. A- and I don't believe we're divided. I just feel that the world now magnifies and is rewarded for opposition with them and us, 'cause it's now reported by amateurs and the gossip is called news. I- so you say what do we wanna create together?" I don't participate in conversations about what's wrong with the way things are now. I don't th- we don't need more studies. We don't need more research. I'm glad to know that there's a part of my brain where love resides, but it doesn't make me more loving. And so it's just a context. W- when we show up, let's talk about, let's get connected. I wanna know what matters to you. When people start having political opinions, I don't ask them about their opinion. I say, "Why is that so important to you?" When people are angry- ... I say, "You really seem angry." I don't take up their point of view. And so opinions to me don't take us anywhere. And the room makes all the difference. If you want to restore community in hard times, and these are as stressful times I've ever known, and I w- I remember the Second World War- And nothing what's we care about has never been more fragile than it is right now, but we're all participating in that. And so why don't we, whatever room I'm in, what do you care about? Let's talk, let's have questions about them. What's the crossroads you're at? What have you said yes to? What doubts do you have that anything could be different? What gifts do you have to bring here? Yeah. I'm not interested in feedback. Cincinnati's done 12 studies on racism in the last 17 years, and guess what they all discovered? It's a problem. And so studying is a defense against changing the world. That's it. More data is a defense. And- Act ... virtual digital connection- ... it counts. It's logistically beautiful. Yeah. All right? But that's what it's good for, and use it, but sooner or later we have to be in a room together, even if it's- And we, anyway Having the conversations I'll get me started, yeah. No, I love it. I really love that. I love your take on opinions. I think that's interesting. I I haven't always thought about it that way, but that is a really good point. Opinions, what value do they really bring? Asking different questions about people's values or intentions versus, or why it's important to them, those are really good questions instead of- Very important ... "What's your opinion on this?" I wanna know where meaning resides with you- ... and with us. Yeah. In a small group, a group of three or four is where everybody can be vulnerable with each other in a low risk moment. And so every time I'm with a group of eight people or more, I break them into small groups. Yeah. Even if it's not my meeting to run. Yeah. And I go to community meetings and the post office wants to move the post office, and they come to make a pitch and defend themselves. And I just, as a stupid citizen, say, "This is great. Hold a second. Would you mind if we talk to each other for a little while and see how we felt about this?" And it turns out the people were fine with it. And so you're always trying to break the mold of- ... Pharaoh. Yeah Person in front. Yeah. I'd love to ask you as you've been reflecting, i- you have, this is the third edition of your book, which I'll talk about in a little bit here, but I'm curious as you're reflecting on your long career in this world, do you have a, do you have a really great story that you love? Or like a success story or an anecdote that you feel like really was meaningful to you or something maybe that happened in a group that you heard that you think really represents what you would love to see more of? Or, I'm putting you on the spot here a little bit, but I'm sure you have a- Oh, I- ... lifetime of stories, Bud ... every time, I collect tattoos of the mind And I can think of moments in a room with a friend of mine, and people were contentious, and he said to them, "I'm warning you now, if you argue with me, I'm gonna take your side." You're gonna take your what? I'm gonna take your side. Oh. Everything changed. So you think and mostly, I think of things from unexpected place. I got invited by the CIA to co- consult with them, and I thought, "There's something else at work. Yes." So I went to Langley, and I broke them into small groups. They talked about their crossroads, and they were human beings. And the other thing that I loved about that was they said, "Okay, at lunchtime we're all gonna put our notes under lock and key- ... 'cause we're the CIA." And I thought, "Nobody's valued my words more than that moment." Wow. Wow. I just think time after time where energy shifted 'cause small groups- yeah where people said no, and, Yeah ... it's always a miracle. Yeah. Oh, that's great. And then it's, the people that invite us in are heroes, too. 'Cause I, every time we- people know who we are. All right? They know that we don't fit. Yeah. Connectors, and and yet they invite us anyway. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, in, in organizations. Also, a friend of mine works in a social service, Youth and Family Services Cincinnati. Okay. It's a tough job. Yeah. They- and they have trouble caring for each other as much as they care for the people who walk in the door. Yep. And this woman said, "Peter, we're having a graduation of a class we're doing for mentors coaching. Would you come?" And so I came before lunch, 40 of them. I said, "Would you break into groups of three or four, talk about what sh- shifted in you as a result of being this-" I say, "Okay, let's come back." And they look up at me and say, "Would you just leave us alone, please? This is what we came for." I said, "Oh, I... There is a place I belong." So I- Oh, that is so true. That is so true. I do a lot of training, and it's just a joke among trainers that after you do a training, people just really want an opportunity to connect with each other- They do ... and hash out their challenges that they're having with colleagues. And so trainers are- and you're qui- yeah, training is the wrong word. They're not dogs. Okay? Exactly. I always join a group whenever I'm in a room. Yep. And whether I'm connecting, a connector, I break them into small... I just sit I sit down. And I say, "I'm here as a participant. Let me tell you the crossroads I'm at this stage in my life." Yep. Yep. And so you really create structure. You're a choreographer- ... of people's conversation. Yep, absolutely. What's the choreography of conversations you wanna design? Yep. Yep. In govern- yeah, in government, I always talk about the... One of the most important roles I think government has is that of a convener. How do you bring people together and then let- Yes ... let things flow, a- and how about during a campaign? Exactly. Exactly. Last- Yep ... October, when people were wanting me to give money, I said, "Could we talk?" Five members of council. I said, "Have you ever thought of a campaign to help citizens realize they have a role to play in the things they care about?" Absolutely. Absolutely. Five out of five- Yeah ... said, "You can't do that around here." Yeah. "This is a sales pitch." Yep. "It's a marketing campaign." Yep. Yep. Yep. That's great that you said that. I just have to plug something I've been doing this year. I've, I started it last year, and I just call them civic chats, but I think you're exactly right. I think citizens... I just think we've... Things have evolved so much in recent years, and I just think we've lost that ability to come together and just talk about local public policies, and I think we've maybe lost some of those skills and aptitudes a little bit too. And so I've just been doing a monthly civic chat doing exactly what you talked about. Yeah. Citizens who wanna just come and connect with other citizens and just kinda rebuild a muscle that maybe we haven't used as much in recent years. And so- I think it's, it- We lost it about 50 years ago. We all lost it when the whole, when we became a market economy- Yep and that dominates everything you do. And so- Yep ... citizens become consumers. Commodities, yep. And so I think what you're doing with your civic chat is very powerful. Yeah. And at some point you can say, "Who what do you g- what do you guys care about?" I care about children, I care about... okay, sit in a circle and talk about why you care about it. Yeah. And then if you wanna come back, maybe we'll let you, you can say, oh, is there one thing you wanna do about, but- Yeah ... a chat's enough. Yeah. Yep. Just to rebuild. It goes back to what we were saying earlier, how do we rebuild a sense of community- Yeah, because- in ways that- As soon as we created the interstate highway- ... and Levitt created a Levittown, the suburb- ... we commercialized our lives. Chicken in every pot. Yep. Yep. And a doorway, a g- garage in every front yard. Yep. Yep. And so a lot of things keep us apart. Yeah. That's why they need us. That's why they need you. I agree. I agree. I agree. All right. Let's pivot to something that you have worked on, and I wanna talk about your book that you, that's out now for a third edition. And I'm curious again, like how that's shifted, and I know that's been a, I'm guessing that's been a real labor of love, your book. And do you have a copy of it there by chance? I do. I'd love... Yeah. Community: The Structure of Belonging by Peter Block. And I am pretty sure I have a copy of that from a while ago in a box of books I have. But and I just recently started listening to it again, and it's it's held up really well. Do you think so? Do you think the- Yeah ... the main themes have held up pretty well over the years? It do- has held up well. And now that I'm clear, I can cut out about a third of the words, 'cause I know what I wanna say. And so that's the joy of redoing a book, is you stop- ... the damn repetition. Yeah. But the, there's something at the heart that's the same. It's still useful. That's why we did another edition. Yeah. That basically there's a set of protocols for how we come together day after day that have an impact. And I, that's where the word connector... I wrote a column called The Age of Connectors. We had the enlightenment, we had medieval times, we had the information age. Now it's time for us on this call to realize that we are the- central players in creating an alternative future, in departing the patriarchal culture and departing the way we commodify each other and the myths we live in as if, social media doesn't bring us together, it keeps us apart. I don't wanna argue with it, but let's create an alternative. And the connectors, so this is the age of connecting. Yeah. And people connecting in service of the common good, which is only means what you really care about. Yeah. All the stuff we're talking about and that- You're, Tracy, creating a gathering place. This is a civic chat we're having. And to say, "Look at, we're not crazy." All right? We're not alone. And there's nothing wrong with us. Yeah. I've spent my life on self-improvement, I've decided, as a act of self-aggression. You're human. Of course you're wacko. Yep. Of course I do and I don't and I did and I could and oh but it means we're human beings. Could we get on and talk about can we just tell what gifts we are to each other without having to quit or die? Aw. That's a beautiful sentiment. Even now, we can talk about the gifts, and I, to me, part of what connectors do is they ask people, "What are you good at and how can we bring that in to be?" Yep. Yep. Yeah. And then people who are vulnerable, stop labeling them. There's no such thing as a homeless person. Yep. That's not who they are. Yep. That's not serving anyone. Let's call them isolated. How do we end their isolation? And that's what you're doing, that's who you are, Tracy. And there's nothing you can do about that. And if you look at the larger world and realize, oh, you've barely whispered into it. So what? Yep. No, yeah. No that's ringing very true. That's very apropos that you're saying that today, 'cause it- Good ... yeah it's I think it's just part of our process in life, right? Really discovering for ourselves what we're good at and what we're here to want to contribute and participate in, and- And take it seriously ... exactly. Exactly. Yes. And get over your ego stuff and just do it. Just do it, yeah. And you do things for their own sake, not for the outcome they're having. Exactly. Exactly. As soon as you say, "We're only gonna do things that have a measurable outcome," you'll never do anything different. Exactly. Yep, absolutely. Yeah. So you change your measures. Yep. Yep. Yeah. I'm trying to remember who it was. I'm not remembering who it was, but something came up it was something I read, but it was someone who was a pretty well-known pod- I feel like it was a well-known podcaster, and just and I think it was a woman, and she said, "I don't do the podcast for anyone. I do it for me. I do it 100% for me because it's something that I want to contribute and I want to put out there, and if people hear it and it influences them, great. If it doesn't, oh and I thought, "That's a great attitude." You can't measure it by numbers, but- Yep. Exactly ... I can't do my podcast without you. If I just really was just for me, all I need is a mirror. Yeah. Yeah. But the listener creates- The speaking Yep exactly. It creates an interaction and- Yeah ... conversation. It's a conversation, right? It's a conversation, and it's filled ... The doubt is where the future resides- not the certainty and proof. Yep. Absolutely. This was great. I love this. I think this was a great conversation. Thank you. I do. And I think people will get some stuff out of it. Thank you ... do you have ... So your book is available, the third edition is available, and I'll put some links in our show notes to that. So I would encourage people to check it out. It really has held up over time, and there's just so many good things that even though those of us that are community connectors, there's just always nuggets and things that we can get out of books like this. So I'd encourage people to go listen to that again or grab it again, and I'll put links in the show notes for that. And one thing I like to do is I always like to end our show with a quote or a story. And so Peter, do you have a quote or another story that's kinda near and dear to your heart that you wanna share as we wind down here? I don't know. I just did a column, I mentioned this to you earlier, Tracy, but years ago, Steven Wright, I heard him say, he... A guy's sitting at a bar and a woman comes up and says, "Your socks don't match." And he said, "That's okay, I go by thickness." And I realized my socks have never matched, okay? And I've been going by thickness, and that's why I need you, is to realize it's fine to go by thickness. And o- it's only we know, and I just think we create space for what's unique about it. It's time to stop apologizing. Wonderful. Also, if people look me up, I do a Substack kind of thing, you know- Okay ... and we do events and stuff, but join us and just, 'cause we need each other, and it's time to take ourselves seriously. Yep. Thank you. That's what you're doing. You're a gift, Tracy. You are. Thank you so much. Thanks for tuning in to the Social Change Leaders podcast. I hope we can stay connected and keep the conversation going. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with your network. For more insights, tools, and resources, visit www.social motion.co. Or follow us on your preferred social media platforms By searching for social motion. Together we can drive the change that we want to see.
